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Thread: Travian debate: Axemen vs. clubswinger

  1. #1

    Default Travian debate: Axemen vs. clubswinger

    Alright everyone today i am going to analyze the everlasting debate of teutons: axemen or clubswinger.

    My choice: clubswinger, why is that?
    Well clubswinger has more attack power/time more attack power/res cost and is cheaper, on the other hand all the poor axemen has is attack power/crop which can be easily negated by: 1) having a 125%+ 15c, 2) consistent raiding(which clubswinger is arguably the best raiding unit in the game competing with Theutates thunder).
    So overall i think that clubswinger is better in pretty much every way as his only weakness is the crop usage which as i already explained can be easily negated, i would go as far as to call axemen the WORST unit in the game! Why? Because although it's purpose is attacking it's also meant to be a more flexible unit as it has 30 defensive strength in both cavalry and infantry defense which makes it obviously less powerful than a specialized unit designed for that purpose, there isn't a single other worse unit in the game in my opinion maybe aside from legionnaire(maybe) which is still used by romans as cavalry defensive unit.

    However there is still light at the end of the tunnel for axemen as i will try to explain under which circumstances axemen is better than the good old clubbies.
    The following conditions must be met:
    1) have a poor oasis bonus/don't have a 15c at all. explanation: If you have low crop usage then it may be axemen's opportunity to shine above the competition as his main strength is getting used.
    2) DO NOT PLAY ON A SPEED SERVER! explanation: on speed servers you naturally produce more crop than usual thus not having crop issues whatsoever also you have limited time to make your hammer so attack power/time is better since it allows you to have your hammer set up much quicker.

    Alright everyone that is it for this post, please give me feedback if you think i overlooked some details/you disagree with my opinion i have really enjoyed writing this and would be glad to have some feedback on my writing style so next posts will be better/more enjoyable.

    Peace.
    Last edited by Bloodbath; 05.11.2016 at 14:51.

  2. #2
    Thorned Warrior Lord Kyrill's Avatar
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    Couple of years back i wrote this Small Guide about Axes and Clubs Hope that helps !


    One of the Most debated topics throughout your travian Teuton experience is whether or not you should train Clubswingers or Axeman for your hammer. Both of them are offensive teuton infrantry units, and each present some advantages and some disadvantages that we will discuss throughout this Guide. We will then explain and elaborate when its better to train clubswingers for your hammer and when its better to have Axeman.

    The Following Statistics apply only on Normal Travian 4 speed servers, and we will be using a level 20 barracks only.

    We Won't be using helmets, but if you need to know more about it, with helmets, you can use the kirilloid travian helper, or simply apply the 10, 15 or 20% bonus on all the numbers that will be stated.

    Numbers

    In 24 hours with a level 20 barracks, and without any great barracks, helmet or any kind of artefact you can train a total of :

    891 Clubswingers a day
    533 Axeman a day


    Cost

    We will now compare the cost price of both clubswingers and axeman

    1 Clubswinger = 95 Wood | 75 Clay | 40 Iron | 40 Crop = 250 Total Resources
    1 Axemen = 130 Wood | 120 Clay | 170 Iron |70 Crop = 490 Total Resources

    To build Clubswingers for a full day ( 24 hours )
    It Would Cost 84.619 Wood | 66.804 Clay | 35.629 Iron | 35.629 Crop = 222.680 Total Resources

    To Build Axeman for a full day ( 24 hours )
    It Would Cost 69.333 Wood | 64.000 Clay | 90.667 Iron | 37.333 Crop = 261.333 Total Resources

    So as you can see, regarding the costs, you save an approximate 40.000 a day by training Clubswingers over Axeman.


    Attacking Power

    We will now compare the attacking power of both the clubswingers and axeman.

    A single Clubswingers has 40 Attack Power
    A single Axeman has 60 Attack Power

    As you can see, when comparing a singularity of units between 1 Axeman and 1 Clubswinger, the axeman has a huge advantage of 1.5x the power of a clubswinger.

    But if we compare the total amount of power produced a day, we would see that Clubswingers come out on top of that . The following calculations will explain that :

    Total Amount of Infantry trained a day x Infantry attack power = Total power produced by this infantry

    For Clubswingers : 891 x 40 = 35.640 Attack Power
    For Axeman : 533 x 60 = 31.980 Attack Power

    35.640 - 31.980 = 3660 Attack Power

    As you can see the clubswingers produce 3660 more attack power a day.


    Carrying Capacity and Raiding Potential

    The clubswingers can carry 60 resources when raiding, and travel at a speed of 7 Fields an hour
    The axe man can carry 50 resources when raiding and travel at a speed of 6 Fields an hour

    As you can see, once again the clubswingers come out on top in this comparison. With having more bounty capacity and a faster march. The Speed only counts in raiding, not in major hammer attack because then we will be using the slowest unit speed which should be catapult speed of 3.
    The only advantage axeman hold is their advantage in attack power, meaning that it will be harder for the defending player to kill an axeman, than it is to kill a clubswinger. Same thing applies to a Wall/Palisade, or Palace/Residence.


    Blacksmith Upgrades

    Effect of blacksmith upgrades shown below

    A level 20 improvement increases the attack power :
    Clubswingers from 40 to 52.4 attack power
    Axemen from 60 to 75.4 attack power


    Upgraded Attack value per day

    891 Clubswingers x 52.4 ATK = 46.688 attack force created per day
    533 Axemen x 75.4 ATK = 40.188 attack force created per day

    The upgraded attack percentage works in favor of Axemen giving them a larger bonus, but the faster production times means the Clubswinger bonus still outweighs the Axemans slight per unit advantage and produce proportionally more attack per day


    Battle Casualties and Rebuilding Time

    For this section I will be using a combat Simulator

    Say we have a day worth of troops fighting 500 Legionnaires. What will be the outcome? How Many troops will you lose? What's their attack value? and how much does it take to rebuild them ?

    If 891 level 0 Clubswingers fight off 500 legionnaires, you would lose 309 Clubswingers, equal to 12360 Attacking power. The time it takes to rebuild 309 Clubswingers is approximately 8 hours 18 minutes.

    If 533 level 0 Axemen fight off 533 legionnaires, you would lose 216 Axeman, equal to 12960 Attacking power. The time it takes to rebuild 216 Axeman is approximately 9 hours 42 minutes.

    As you can see, for 1 day worth of troops, fighting off 500 legionnaires in this case, you would lose less attacking power with clubswingers, and the rebuild time would be less as well.
    Imagine that on a bigger scale now.

    Summary

    In all the stated above, we have concluded that Clubswingers came out on top in all aspects, They cost less, we can train more per day, they have more attacking power, their casualties, attack power speaking and rebuild time, is also lower. They are better raiders and they march faster. but there is 1 more thing to discuss.

    Crop Upkeep

    The only aspect where Axeman gain a huge advantage, and some people even consider this aspect alone equals and surpasses all the stated above, is the troop upkeep of Clubswingers over axeman.

    As you can see, in 1 day only, without taking into consideration helmets, or Trainer's artefacts or even Great Barracks, Clubswingers produce 358 more wheat per hour in 24 hours. That might sound a bit low at the beginning stages of the game say pre- artefact, but as the server progresses this turns to a real big problem, specially if you have a low oasis % on your cropper or even a 9c cropper as your capital.

    So everything comes at its price, Clubswingers cost less, they train faster, they have a higher attacking power and they are a better raiding unit, but their troop upkeep will increase exponentionally and become a real pain as the server gets older. In other words, Axeman are cheaper than Clubswingers for someone who keeps armies alive longer and doesn't use it more often.

    So now I will leave the choice to you, depending on your situation and account, and most importantly your activity, you should now be able to choose what's best for you

  3. #3

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    Very informative thank you kyrill!

  4. #4
    Pikeman
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    I'd like to expand the subject of crop upkeep and the 'real' cost of clubbies.

    This whole post assumes no losses of either clubbies or axes.

    To measure the whole cost you have to use a triangular function for the crop upkeep. Like when you calculated the area of a triangle in school. In 3 days, you'll have 1016 more clubbies than you'll have axemen. This is one side of the triangle. The other one is the number of hours - their crop consumption for all those hours during the three days. That's 72. So (72*1016)/2=36 576. This is very simple - it's just the total consumption they would have after 3 days if you got all 1016 at the first second. But you don't, so dividing by two gives you the average for those three days, even if in reality most of those resources are spent closer to the end.

    That means the extra crop consumption for clubbies are 36 576 after three days. For axemen, the extra cost is higher, since they cost 38500 more to produce each day, which is 115 500 after three days.

    And no, if you calculate it by taking 358*24 for the first day, and then 716*24 for the second day and 1016*24 for the third, you will not get the right result because the clubbies do not automatically appear at the beginning of each day. They accumulate slowly (yes, you've now heard that clubbies accumulate slowly. There is truly a first time for everything!). But the general principle still applies.

    So, for example I'll use 30 days and 80 days as examples.

    In 30 days, axes will have cost 7 840 000 in training. They are 16000. The eat 16000 per hour. 30 days is 720 hours. (720*16000)/2=5 760 000.
    The cost for building the 16 000 axes is 7 840 000 + 5 760 000 (training + upkeep) = 13 600 000

    For clubbies in 30 days:
    26 722 clubbies, they cost 6 680 412 (according to the kirilloid webbsite - the twentysixthousandsevenhundredandtwentythird club is not finished yet, that why it's not an even number) to train. (26 722*720)/2=9 619 920
    The cost for building the clubbies is 6 680 412 + 9 619 920 = 16 300 332

    So the difference in cost is 2 700 000 after 30 days, or 19.8% more expensive. Comparatively, the clubbies give you 16% higher attack than the axes do, so per attack point, the axes are less expensive after 30 days. Without counting the attack points, axes are cheaper after something like 10 days.

    80 days, then.

    Axes: 42 667 which cost 20 906 667 to build. 80 days is 1920 hours. (1920*42667)/2=40 960 320.
    20 906 667+40 960 320=61 866 897

    Clubbies: 71 258 which cost 17 814 433 to build. (71 258*1920)/2=68 407 680.
    17 814 433+68 407 680 = 86 222 113

    So after 80 days, 24/7 production of clubbies and axemen have cost
    61.9 million for axes
    86.2 million for clubbies.

    That's a difference of 39%. Or 24.3 million resources.


    Note, that an account producing 300 000 resources every hour will have produced 576 000 000 resources in 80 days. So 20 million resources one way or the other doesn't matter, maybe. Yeah, except that you hardly will stay on exactly 300 000 in 80 days straight, I'd just picked a number which i think is not uncommon for a good late game account.

    What matters more is if you know you can handle 30 000 more than otherwise extra crop consumption at the end of the eighty days. Can you still keep producing clubbies with this extra amount? For how long? Maybe, if you can't keep the production up for more than around 20-21 hours per day, it's better to use axes (20-21 hours to compensate for the 16% extra attack/time the clubbies have). That depends on what else you do and how good your account is, etc. I'd also like to point out, that if you use great barracks, it takes a lot longer for clubbies to overtake axes in cost. So if you have the resources for great barracks, there are very few occassions in which axes are better.

    You should also keep in mind, that the 24.3 million resources after 80 days - a lot of them are towards the end, where you might have even less resources because of teutonic knights and so on.

    I'd also like to point out, that axemen still are really good. It's just that clubbies are better. Axes are still better than both imperians and swordsmen, so they are not completely worthless, and I think there is no shame in building axes, especially if you have an account that is very intense in terms of negative crop.
    Last edited by Oink; 15.11.2016 at 15:46.

  5. #5
    Axerider
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    It is simple.

    Axes = More power. Cost a bit more. Slower if used for Raiding. Carry less if used for Raiding.

    Clubs - Average power, less than Axes. Cheapest base unit in game. Decent speed and raiding capacity.

    Essentially it comes down to personal circumstance, including but not limited to the following:

    1. Are you using gold and getting 25% crop+ bonus?
    2. Are you going to be raiding?
    3. Are you a multi hammer player, or solo big WWK player?
    4. Are you experienced in dealing with mass negative crop
    5. Are you playing Speed or Snail server?
    6. Activity. Are you online a LOT, or have decent duals?

    Lot of factors come into it, but essentially it is different for different players.

    My own personal preference is multi hammer and will general have 2 or 3 of these with Clubs and one play one with axes, possibly a non cropper, and thus 25-30k axe/tk hammer can be a nice surprise for an enemy :P
    Completed 9 Servers
    Average Alliance Rank - 5th Average pop - 30,625 Average Conquer Rank - 14th
    Average Off rank - 15th - Kills 541,000 Average Def Rank - 16th - Kills: 551,000

  6. #6

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    Attack

    If you have Level 20 Barracks
    You can build 2688 Clubswingers in a day
    You can build 1728 Axemen in a day

    1 Clubswinger = 250 Resources
    1 Axemen = 490 Resources

    Clubswingers Attack = 40
    Axemen Attack = 60
    At the moment Axes may have more attack but just keep reading

    Clubswinger Attack x How many Clubswingers you can build a day = 107,520
    Axemen Attack x How many Axeman you can build a day = 103,680

    So far, we have found it, if you build Axemen 24/7 for 24 hours, you can produce 3840 less attack points, but if you build Clubswingers non stop for 24 hours you produce 3840 more attack

    Cost

    In Total Clubswingers cost 95 Wood | 75 Clay | 40 Iron | 40 Wheat
    In Total Axemen cost 130 Wood | 120 Clay | 170 Iron |70 Wheat

    To Build Clubswingers for a day non-stop it would cost
    255,360 Wood | 201,600 Clay | 107,520 Iron | 107,520 Wheat

    To Build Axemen for a day non-stop it would cost
    224,640 Wood | 207,360 Clay | 293,760 Iron | 120,960 Wheat

    So far, I have proved you can build more Clubswingers, get more attack points than axe and it will still be cheaper, most people usually use Axemen for their Hammer, I am going to prove Clubswingers are better for a hammer

  7. #7
    Thorned Warrior
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    now, look at the Attack/wheat and you get why some people build axes

  8. #8
    Pikeman
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaufen View Post
    most people usually use Axemen for their Hammer, I am going to prove Clubswingers are better for a hammer
    Most people use axes? I thought it was the other way around. Also, you don't have to prove it since it already has been proven earlier in this thread.

    Axes and clubbies are both great, but clubbies are better. The only reason for not having clubbies is lack of resources (wheat) in the long run.

  9. #9

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    Well, you can argue for days about clubs and axes which one is better, but there is no "better", only what you need. Both have advantages and disadvantages, and your needs are changing too in different phases of the server. So, my hammer building strategy is like this:
    - Early game: clubs non stop, to raid and dominate your neighborhood
    - From the mid game and when you got your great barrack, train axes in the barrack and clubs in the GB, because by the time you already have lots of clubs and they are eating you up, also training axes in GB is too expensive (their cost disadvantage is multiplied there)
    - If you lost your hammer or it's damaged, clubs again in both barrack and GB

    Now, about GB, captial hammers are for the simmers, i always train non cap hammer for the GB, and in one server i trained 2 non cap hammers almost side by side.

    Also one small tip that everybody knows but few really understand the importance, upgrade the weaponry asap, they dont eat your crops and they do make differences.

  10. #10
    Thorned Warrior Lord Kyrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outrider View Post
    - From the mid game and when you got your great barrack, train axes in the barrack and clubs in the GB, because by the time you already have lots of clubs and they are eating you up, also training axes in GB is too expensive (their cost disadvantage is multiplied there)
    What Advantage would you gain if you switch to building axeman in barracks, you're now lowering your attack production per hour with that, and you now can't equip either the club of the clubwinger, nor the axe of the axeman, but you're not forced with the sword of the TK which gives less bonus than either of the infantry if trained fully

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